say it loud...agnostic and proud
I'm totally behind you on this, Kirk. It just stuns me that people are willing to guide their political actions based solely on faith and at the expense of, you know, reality. What also gets me is that "they" are fine with their side committing all manners of unethical and immoral behavior (voter suppression and invading iraq for starts) and still clothe themselves in the moral high ground. It's mind-blowing. And indicative of a force that we may not be able to reason with. I fear great crippling division here in the generation ahead, and we must bridge it or America, as originally envisioned, will perish.
--bill aube Thu Nov 4 09:57:15 2004
Y'know, as much as people talk about the morals at hand are the important, I've been thinking that it's more that Bush has an in your face, almost consistent morality rather than a "let's look at things, evaluate it, then figure out something," in other words a critical morality.

I've been reading an essay which examines the life of Heinrich Himmler, the head of the SS during WWII. It has an interesting cultural analysis of how back in his childhood (before WWI) then in Germany, people were seen as cogs in a machine and that there was this conception that people and children are supposed to act in a certain way and that it was OK to pretty much torture them to act in that certain way and act all totalitarian authoritative so that essentially they don't have the ability to create their own individual personality, so that they become dependent on some kind of outside source to give their life purpose and to form their morality. Is it possible that, in many ways, in the people voting for Bush, they like his strong, in your face morality because it provides them with guidance and purpose as to how live their own lives because they don't have the capability to form their own identity, face challenges, etc. etc.?

In many ways, this political election was one of culture, not politics. Is it possible that the country would change if we actually tried to help children and adults have their own mental and critical abilities to form their own identity, purpose, etc. etc. without reference to the other authority figures like their president, the media, advertising, etc.?

Just some primordial starting to think about the topic.
--Mr. Lex Thu Nov 4 10:32:56 2004
not to be snarky, but this is the first genuinely kirkish entry in WEEKS! i'm tired of regurgitated news, babe.

so, yes, i think you are right to be afraid, very afraid. i am also afraid. there is a cultural, a class, and a geographic divide, here, that is blowing this centrist-liberal's mind. i had hoped that over time, with shifts in demographics and with W's idiocy on clear display this campaign season, that most folks in this country would be guided by common decency in their voting practices. this decency is, i believe, common-sensical and self evident to any thinking creature. if however, you need help, the rules are codified in this world's sacred (to some) texts. yet 51% of folks in this country can't translate these very simple rules into real behaviors. so because our religious leaders translate for the unthinking masses, dogma is handed down no matter how outmoded or ridiculous, folks think it's ok to be shits. it's ok to discriminate in so many ways, it's ok to fight with others, it's ok to make the rich richer (lord knows they deserve it) and the poor poorer. it's ok that we spend billions on war and industry while the homeless and insane panhandle in the cold of winter. it's ok to waste tax dollars on oversized government while children go hungry. it's ok that we go to shopping malls before the holidays and dig ourselves into debt instead of giving to those who need it, who our government must do more to help, who have no political voice because we ALL have left them behind.

this is a rather sick society.
--pissed FoSO Thu Nov 4 10:44:48 2004
Al the while. . .many liberals and people disappointed by the election results call the red states "willfully ignorant hicks," which then reinforces how horrible liberals from the Northeast are. Yes, it's anger, but it creates that much of a divide.

The question is: Why do people become so morally and ethically and identity wise so empty that they depend on other driven people to give them guidance? And how do we fix the problem?
--Mr. Lex Thu Nov 4 10:55:10 2004
FoSO...just to ignore your main points and focus on the trivia..."WEEKS"? Assuming by "kirkish" you mean essays/rambles rather than quotes-n-links...last week I had that thing on Shrodinger's Cat and then a little before that a big piece on Yoga philosophy.....

But I appreciate your interest in my longer rambles and such :-)

One other thought on the election crowing...51% is not a damn landslide. Reagan over Mondale in '84...that was a landslide, and possibly even a mandate. But this? He squeaked out a win, and just because people felt compelled not to "throw their vote away" on a third party candidate, he thinks it's a giant assurance that he's doing just the right things.
--Kirk Thu Nov 4 11:01:47 2004
That's exactly my thought, except that I would think such a close election would force future candidates to possibly compromise more so as to try to get more of a landslide election than a squeak by.

But yeah. . .I like Kirk analysis tangents, also. =D
--Mr. Lex Thu Nov 4 11:07:46 2004
i calls 'em like i sees 'em... :)
--FoSO, less pissed than this morning Thu Nov 4 14:44:41 2004
"With the campaign over, Americans are expecting a bipartisan effort and results. I will reach out to everyone who shares our goals and I'm eager to start the work ahead," Bush said in a news conference at the Executive Office Building in Washington.

THAT is Bush's plege for unity. So long as you agree with him, he will work with you. If you don't agree, please fill out this form and a representative will be in touch.
--Eric Thu Nov 4 23:33:07 2004
Is that form in some way a reference to the mass arrests of Jews during the Third Reich?
--Mr. Lex Fri Nov 5 00:04:56 2004
Honestly. . .if people want things to be more fair and have this corruption not happen in the future, they should run for some kind of office and try to change things themselves while also writing articles instead of complaining about how the election a couple days ago went wrong.
--Mr. Lex Fri Nov 5 00:13:12 2004
So I guess that means that Godwin's Law has been invoked?

No Mr. Lex, it wasn't, I was thinking more in the ominous sci-fi sense. While a case can be made about the government exhibiting fascist tendencies, I think the current reality is that the administration is successfully ignoring dissenters, not persecuting them.
--Eric Fri Nov 5 02:43:56 2004
Let me make myself unpopular here... I'm an atheist and a small L libertarian and I don't believe any of us are free until all of us are free. 

It's true you have to pick your battles. You also have to make compromises.

I don't think this election was about religion at all.

I didn't vote for Bush because I couldn't, but I'm glad he won. 

I hope he frees Iranians and Syrians before his term is over even if it makes him the most unpopular president ever. He will have done a great service to humanity. 

We certaintly can't wait for a non-existant god to accomplish these things.

--AuSkeptic Fri Nov 5 07:41:14 2004
Iraq is a stupid war started on a premise that mostly everyone knew was extremely iffy and I think Bush should've been punished for that. I don't believe life is better for Iraqis now than it was before.
--Kirk Fri Nov 5 08:15:10 2004
And the numbers show that more Iraqis have been detained and killed during this US occupation than during Saddam's regime. Then there's the whole "Shock & Awe" tactics. Anyone ever hear of civilians? It's just: What the fuck were they thinking?!?!?!
--Mr. Lex Fri Nov 5 09:22:25 2004
Whatever. I'm now embarrassed that I was ever a lefty.

Very embarrassed.

--AuSkeptic Fri Nov 12 10:06:51 2004
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