in-deep-end-dance
ask and ye shall receive.

perhaps you need to rethink your reaction to using "those three words." is expressing your love verbally going to diminish you in any way? do you feel that you’re losing something, like privacy or independence? (well, clearly independence is what you’re thinking.) you say that a relationship is, and i quote, “two strong people, sharing and cooperating on important issues, meeting many [of] each other's… wants and needs.” what i notice in sentence are the words “many” and “strong.” do you think there’s no one out there who can satisfy ALL (or the vast, huge majority) your wants and needs? are you are holding something back from the person you’re with, in the hope that someone better will appear? are people you see as dependent necessarily weak and to be despised? is this why you don’t want to appear this way (to yourself)?

of additional interest to me is your similar discomfort expressing love to your family. if you don’t tell them now, then when? not to wax sappy, but this life is too soon over, and terribly unexpected. don’t delay, you may not have another chance.

MoSO, as i'll call him, is very necessary to me, and vice versa. co-dependence could well be our new last name. our relationship didn’t start out this way, it has been a continual process of discovering wants needs (on both sides of the equation) and striving to satisfy these because we like each other quite a bit. perhaps a relationship becomes stable (and, perhaps by definition, dependent) when you reach a critical mass of needs satisfied. all i know is, i wouldn’t change a thing, even though i would be devastated to lose him. 

--FoSO Tue Dec 28 11:17:01 2004
Honestly, I think the word "co-dependence" has been blown up out of context in our culture, as it happily does so with catch phrases. Or maybe I have the wrong impression of the word. Anyway, as far as my impression, "co-dependence" essentially means that one side of the relationship essentially enables the other side to continue in some kind of unhealthy habit, such as drug use, alcoholism, violent relationship, etc. etc. Essentially, the co-dependent side of the relationship won't leave the relationship, even if they're getting completely and utterly shat upon to the point that any reasonable person with a sense of mind would get out of that relationship ASAP. From what I've seen, Kirk, at least with Mo, any girl you with whom you would start a relationship would have the confidence and sense of mind to either kick your ass into shape or get the hell out of a relationship with you, so honestly, I don't really think you have to worry about co-dependence issues, unless you hooked up with someone with unhealthy habits. Then again. . .I don't really see you getting these kinds of unhealthy habits, unless you've gone through some huge, traumatic life change, the kind that a cult would use to their advantage and put you into a co-dependent situation there.

But just other thoughts: Michi and I never say that we can't live without each other. We just say something like "You add to my happiness an infinity-fold." The moment that one or the other would become completely dependent on the other for a healthy state of mind, we would have to re-think out relationship. Honestly, though, I can't see myself living life without, even on the practical side of things. I could do it, but I wouldn't want to do it. Every once in awhile, I imagine what would happen if she were to pass away or we broke up, and I can't really imagine my reaction. I honestly don't think I'd go into huge amounts of emotions, or at least not in some immediate right then fashion. Nonetheless, I have a lot of feeling for this girl and want her with me. I have no problem saying "I love you" to her because I guess I don't think of it as giving up something of myself that I don't want her to have. Besides, any girl that accepts me for the strange sounds I make while walking through the house or not really doing anything, that's got to mean a lot.

I guess, in the long run, I don't mind humbling myself to her with a lot of things, even though I expect a good deal from her, too, and I will tell her so. Nonetheless, it's a rocky road. . ..

Hope this helps, even though I don't really have a main point. I guess it really comes down to what you're willing to give up to someonw, how much you're willing to expose, etc. etc.

I've had thoughts in the past of why give this kind of attention and so forth to just one person. . .even though it is a lot easier than trying to maintain strong intimate relations with more than one person!
--Mr. Lex Tue Dec 28 12:22:17 2004
"do you think there’s no one out there who can satisfy ALL (or the vast, huge majority) your wants and needs?"

I guess I'd say no...I don't think it's reasonable or even fun to want everything covered by one person, or why else have outside friends?

"are you are holding something back from the person you’re with, in the hope that someone better will appear?"

I might be guilty of this.

" are people you see as dependent necessarily weak and to be despised?"

Well, frankly I have a hard time judging if other people are really dependent or not.

Maybe I think of dependency in oversimplified terms; humans are astoundingly resilient, and life always goes on, so "dependency" MUST be a relative thing, scaled to how messed up things would be if you lost the thing you're dependent on.

My Aunt and to a lesser extent mom are always sure to end phone conversations with "love you" just on the "you never know when might be the last time" angle.
--Kirk Tue Dec 28 12:23:40 2004
OY...
a daunting thing to face.
ALL I know from personal experience (and a nearly 24-year relationship/marriage) is that models and paradigms go out the window by necessity. NOTHING in a lasting relationship can be immutable, save the commitment to stay in it. Or perhaps more accurately, it's a deep-seated stubbornness that refuses to give up and give in. I could write a few thousand words on this... but how could I possibly make it useful? Each relationship is a new and vital (and unique) entity.

In the end, I find so many things in my relationship with my wife that fit the dependent/co-dependent model that it isn't even funny. I suppose that any relationship is doomed to the inherent imperfections of the two who are in it, for there are, and always will be inequalities to contend with, feelings to overcome, needs to be met, and those that will go unmet... ugh. I don't know if I've made anything other than a hash out of this incoherent rambling, but I think I have touched on my major findings in the last couple of decades.
--kevin Tue Dec 28 16:15:16 2004
Co-dependence develops between two people because love and trust. You depend on your partner because you can, not because you have to. Love and trust have brought you to a point where you can make each others life easier, not make their or your life possible.
Co-ependence is a benefit not a burden, man. Christ , stop rationalizing away all the good stuff.
--xoxoxo Bruce Tue Dec 28 17:28:12 2004
Yeah, I like what Bruce said at the end, stop rationalizing away the good stuff.
--Mr. Lex Tue Dec 28 18:48:04 2004
I am sooooo dependent on your love and your mom's and your UB's. Would I die if for some reason you stopped loving me. No. Would I grieve the loss of that love and be less because of it? Absolutely. For me, the key is trusting you enought to be vulnerable and "needful" of your love. Trusting you enough that you would never intentionally betray that. Unintentional betrayal of that trust (read: death) sucks. Intentional betrayal (read: Mo, Mel, whoever - we all have one) sucks worse. BUT, if that intentional or unitentional betrayal changes ME so that I refuse or kill that ability to be vulnerable again - who loses?
--YELAS Tue Dec 28 19:22:26 2004
You've got it,YELAS!
Spot on.
--xoxoxo Bruce Wed Dec 29 15:16:47 2004
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