Very insightful, Kirk. My wife is a strident feminist, and sometimes I have to roll my eyes (figuratively, speaking) because I think she sometimes believe that it truly is some sort of conspiracy. But you put it nicely--it's just that it kind of worked out that way, in a social-Darwinism sense. 
--Harry Wed May 12 06:55:07 2004
"strident" feminist.....

As opposed to ? feminist?

--YELAS Wed May 12 07:30:54 2004
Collusion, I think is the word. It doesn't create conspiracy, but through complacency or only going for pure self-interest (also probably applicable in the situations of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, Osama Bin Laden's beef with the US since the US supports Saudi Arabia because of oil and Saudi Arabia oppresses Osama's ethnic group and the big wigs of Saudi Arabia only have the power to do so because of the US, Saddam's gaining of power in Iraq because of the US and their funneling of weapons to him, etc. etc. for the national interests of the US, which really pisses off people willing to do anything or to kidnap people and coerce them into doing anything to fight for their or their ethnic group's freedom). Ahhhh, how collusion and complacency can make the world horrible.

On the side of feminism, though, I have to admit that I get confused by the current generation of what I will call "Chix" who read Chick Lit like Bridget Jones's diary who also consider themselves feminists, who many older feminists call the 3rd wave of feminism, yet who have the willingness to collude with the current "Patriarchial" society but say that they're willing to give up responsibilities, but they want to have certain benefits. Now, I'm not anti-feminist, but I get darned confused by the changing meaning of feminism and so on and so forth.

Just some thoughts!
--Mr. Lex Wed May 12 08:50:13 2004
Feminism: a beliefe that women are entitled to (or access to - depending on your liberal vs. radical view) the same social, political, economic and educational rights and benefits as men.
--YELAS Wed May 12 08:54:18 2004
Given how charged a subject this can be, I'm glad the conversation has stayed very reasonable. 

The discussion of feminism gets interesting in a few places. As with racism in this country, you do have to ask given the unfairness that has gone in the past, what is the best way to deal with it? There are some areas, like college graduation rates, where the field has been leveled (or even gone the other way) and other fields like salaries where there's reason to suspect ongoing inbalance.

There are also some phenomenally big questions about does providing the same rights and benefits (especially to young people) imply ignoring or putting inside some of the probably-biological (though also deeply and insiduously cultural) difference between boys and girls? And again, even great parenting will only go so far...when it comes to culture, you're soaking in it. 

Just some thoughts.
--Kirk Wed May 12 15:08:54 2004
Some more thoughts:

On second thought, I think I kinda like the conversation in the comments section. It allows for good moderation instead of getting very deep into discussions, like I've done on mailing lists and forgotten about the rest of life. . .. =(

As for the topic at hand, I guess I, personally, would have to do more research into the topic. Nonetheless, I guess a lot of the issue with these types of matters (ie feminism, rascism) lies in the fact that different groups want to have a piece of the "conventional" modern White Straight Man pie, but at the same time, they want to keep their cultural and sexual identity. I think that's called Identity Politics or something like that.
--Mr. Lex Wed May 12 15:43:33 2004
And if there were as many females or racial persons from a singular group represented in the positions of power and authority as the White Straight Man, even at the present time, maybe said White Straight Man would feel the same. : )
--Wing and a Prayer Thu May 13 04:32:58 2004
I'm not saying what they want is bad. I'm just stating the real situation, as Wing has pretty much just confirmed. It just so happens that reality doesn't always sound pretty, especially when there's not enough time and energy to actually think these things through and come to a good solution. Grrrr. . ., especially when we have personal, emotional, spiritual, and mental lives.
--Mr. Lex Thu May 13 08:19:00 2004
I think all most people want is trust and acceptance... given the world's social history, and the social mores that are passed down from generation to generation, it is not surprising that an imbalance still exists despite attempts to address it.
--Wing and a Prayer Fri May 14 09:35:24 2004

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