illusion/elusion
Yeah, that whole thing sounds very pretentious, and that's come from a pretty pretentious guy who unwittingly uses pretentious vocabulary. I didn't even understand half of that guy's description, it was so pretentious. Friggin' pretentious twits!

It's kinda like how I'm annoyed with most vegans and raw foodists for taking it so far that they're more into health, spirituality, being one with the Earth, etc. etc. rather than sitting down and enjoying the taste of the food. Yeah, all that other stuff is important, but if you can't enjoy what you eat, what's the point?!

I maybe a little off the center when it comes to mainstream culture, but other people just take it so much further than me. . ..

Twits.

Now just imagine the kind of evil you two Kirk's could accomplish in this world with both of your Atari 2600 interests.
--Mr. Lex Fri May 13 11:26:32 2005
"so far that they're more into health, spirituality, being one with the Earth, etc. etc. rather than sitting down and enjoying the taste of the food."

Ummm...for people who are full-fledged omnivores, you'll have trouble convincing them that limiting your pallete to a subset of what is available is an improvement. Textures especially are problematic for people who stick a toe in veggitarian land.
--Kirk Fri May 13 11:52:43 2005
Huh?

Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me?
--Mr. Lex Fri May 13 11:56:02 2005
Sorry.

Bluntly: people who like meat don't believe that vegetarians/vegans/frutarians are doing it because they like the taste.

In fact, given that the omnivore diet is a superset of that v/v/f/ diet, that I can eat anything you can but you can't eat everything I can, you have to go to arguments like "well the vegans *appreciate* it more" or other arguments.
--Kirk Fri May 13 12:20:39 2005
Well, I guess I may actually be something of an atypical v/v/f in that except for rare occasions, I never really liked meat.

I could pretty much go on forever about my decision and reasons for it and so forth. . .but yeah, I'm doing it pretty much for moral and health reason, but mostly moral. But if I'm going to narrow down my choice of foods for moral reasons, I'm going to make sure that I enjoy what I eat.

As for health reasons, healthy stuff should not be unpleasant. Maybe at first, like exercise or something, but once you get used to it, it should be something to enjoy, not something you tell yourself, "This is disgusting, but I'm going to be healthier for it," after all. . .there's plenty of stories of people who live extremely unhealthy lives then loving so much longer than people who dedicate their lives to a healthy life. Ever read those articles where someone's who's like 105 or something and they're asked, what do you eat, and they answer, bacon, bacon and bacon juice!

But yeah, "militant" v/v/f and raw fooders really give the whole lifestyle a really bad image, mainly because their food just can suck so bad!
--Mr. Lex Fri May 13 12:38:50 2005
What a chump. He takes a deep subject worth exploring and hijacks it into an excuse to be retro-cool. Is anyone enriched by it, does anyone look at technology or themselves differently as a result? To quote the immortal Dean of discount furntiture fame, "I doubt it".

As far as the diet thing goes, I'm as offended when I go to someone's house and they don't serve meat as they would be if I served nothing but (which is actually the case fairly often). No v/v/f I've ever met has understood that.
--Eric Fri May 13 13:59:13 2005
I've never met any house hold that serves nothing but meat. In the case, such as my parents, where making food for me is more trouble to them than it's worth, then I have no trouble bringing something to make for myself.

My girlfriend likes her meat, but every once in awhile, she makes me a vegan dish because she likes to experiment and help me feel happy.

Nonetheless, I have to admit that I don't necesarily see where offense comes into play. I guess I have to think of it this way, if someone who isn't a relative (who sometimes I really wouldn't want to see, anyway) invites me over to serve me food, then more likely than not, they know that I'm vegan, so I don't believe they should expect me to come over and eat meat. If they do, then I'd be offended that they could "convert" me or that they didn't have the empathy to see anything from my viewpoint. In that sense, I would probably have a hard time being friends with them in the first place because they probably would have shown plenty instances of antipathy in the history of a theoretical friendship.

As for my inviting someone over to my place for dinner and I'm making dinner, I think they would know by then that I'm vegan. If not, I would let them know, so they would know what to expect when they came over to my home and, if I were making food, what they should expect for food. Probably luckily for meat eaters, my girlfriend likes her meat and is very hospitable and likes showing off her cooking skills, so she might make a meat entree for someone.

In the long run, inviting someone over to your place for a meal I think isn't so much a matter of diet but more of a matter of setting expectations. Saying that you're offended that a v/v/f doesn't have meat at their home for you feels analgous to saying getting offended if a Catholic household doesn't have an altar or prayer room for Muslims. These are private homes where the residences of them have the right to live practically the way they so wish and offer hospitality in practically the way they wish and have sex in practically the way that they wish, not some public building or organization or some such thing that more often than not has to cater to just about all.

But then again, I'm vegan, so maybe I don't understand how you could be offended by having expectations that a v/v/f person would have meat in their private residence.
--Mr. Lex Fri May 13 15:03:11 2005
Is it that hard to understand? If a v/v/f person comes over and I know they are, I would obviously have something for them, and they would be offended if I didn't. If I go over their place, why is it rude to expect they would have something for me? How is my decision to avoid fruits and vegetables less worthy than someone's decision to avoid eating meat?
--Eric Fri May 13 17:39:32 2005
Realistically, how many people are avoiding fruits and vegetables? A skillfull vegetarian should be able to make something palatable even for the carb-phobic. (Fact is most human "carnivores" are in fact "omnivores")

And I'm going to grant the v/v/fs the high road on this one--there's a decent chance that the decision to shun meat comes from a very moral desire to not have to live at other beings' exsepense. I don't feel the compuction to share that behavior but I do respect enough that I don't want the blood to be on their hands, or more literally their chopping board, if that's not their inclination. (Hell, I'd probably be a vegetarian if I did all my own cooking, that stuff is icky.)

Seriously--bring your own f'ing meat if it's that important, just like Jesse had to tote his own fruitarian crap, and/or learn to enjoy some probably very interesting vegetarian dishes.
--Kirk Fri May 13 22:51:07 2005
To be honest, your moral absolutism surprises me. IMO morality is not a popularity contest.
--Eric Mon May 16 01:29:59 2005
I really can't think of anything else to add to the debate. Your view feels very foreign to me.
--Mr. Lex Mon May 16 08:11:46 2005
Who's moral absolutism? Mine? I'm pretty damn relativist...
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